Ruth Proposal Etherpad Summary

etherpad

Summary of the major discussion points

@Austin: a) The last commit by Shin was the point at which we have all we got from him up to Ruth RC#3 and Roth RC#1 November 12th 2018 https://github.com/ingen-lab/Ruth/commit/8780455b46f3bcfe07018d0b2bdf7701b01db6e3
So that would make a good checkpoint.

@Serie: we could tag this as a reference point to make it easy to find

@Austin: c) Ruth RC#2 is MUCH better represented in the repository and could offer a guide for what we need to pull together or recreate for Ruth RC#3 and Roth RC#1. Shin even made sure a lot of the DAE uploads etc he used were available on Github and specifically commented to ask people to leave them in place to act as a training or study guide. So I think that would make a really good checkpoint too.

@Serie: yes, this I think is what we should branch or at least also tag for reference. I've thought that cleaning it up to remove RC3 bits that might be already present would be useful but after looking at this list I think that is a low priority.

@Austin: d) My efforts have been to try to recover as many of the assets as I can using a definitive, unchanged and unworn version of Shin's ingen-lab.com:8002 provided Ruth RC#3, Roth RC#1 and the R2 Extras box. This is verified by the creator and last owner (in most cases) being Shin or one of his ingen-lab:8002 avatars. I think we have MOST of that now in place for that including all the scripts, all the textures for the HUDs, HUD Doll, rootprim, etc, except the skins he used in the skin applier for each.

@Austin: m) Second Life is in a difficult state… Most things being based on RC#2. I am not aware of a proper RC#3 that is definitely based on Shin's materials. It will be impossible to create a RC#3 or Roth RC#1 there that is the same as the OpenSim one Shin created UNLESS we can recover Shin's original DAE meshes for the bodies, all parts and the HUDs.

@Serie: I think we should do the similar thing in SL that Austin did in OSGrid, maybe using Sean's DAE files until we have a documented export process? I have done bits of this already but got sidetracked with the combo HUD idea. :) We can host it in my (little) store if there isn't a better place.

@Austin: o) Then rather than trying to go to a release now, or even stating RC#3 is the Ruth first release… that we go via a Ruth RC#4 and Roth RC#2 that uses the current base perhaps (initially) with NO CHANGE in the Blender meshes and dev kits, so we clearly state its based on Shin's current devkit, but making sure all parts and materials, scripts (and the channel/appID) and documents we need are up to date, or recreated from earlier Ruth RC#2 materials if not. Some one with Blender/Avatar/Collada export knowledge might be able to achieve the same quality and low avatar complexity mesh as Shin achieved. Then that would become a basis for a more controlled testing release into both OpenSim and Second Life. A definitive site to pick up a full perm copy in both platfroms would be important, like we had with ingen-lab:8002 in OpenSim. Changing the RC#number would help make sure we all start off with the same basis. I even wanted to try to make sure everyone had the same in world assets for textures, scripts and meshes in world so there was a much greater sharing and caching of the parts unless they were genuine modifications.

@Sserie: I think you are right on track here Austin. One reason to branch RC3 now would be to have a place to do the cleanup work and still let things happen in the main branch. We probably also need to come up with a way of naming things so we do not stumble over the bit about Ruth being at RC3 and Roth being RC1. When it comes time for Ruth RC4 we could just bump Roth up to RC4 also.

@Austin: p) This could also mean that based on that version and prior to a first release we can address the upcoming bakes on mesh which could simplify use of mesh bodies a lot, bring in a much simpler system for the HUDs using scripts like Serie is working on, and address the mesh issues now showing up using the Firestorm 6.0.1 uploader which indicates there are some thin triangle “red marked” items in some of the meshes (like hands and feet) which prevents the new uploader working. Maybe even fix the X-Forward warning (non-terminal) on all the meshes when uploaded to Firestorm 6.0.1 (which may be why the meshes appear at right angles to the avatar sketon while they are loading, which is ugly.

@Serie: I love the idea of being able to take advantage of Bakes on Mesh, we have enough to do already maybe the first release could be basically RC3 cleaned up as above then we add that? I come from the “release early, release often” world so holding up releases for new things bugs me :)

@Sundance: I'm glad we all agree on continuing to have personal directories. I'd like to offer a suggestion that we don't scattered personal directories in multiple locations as they were in the old GitHub repo. Under the old system, an individual's personal directory was repeated under Ruth and under Roth, and under LSL Scripts and under HUD's, etc. Rather it makes sense to me to have them all under one major branch, near the top of the Ruth/Roth tree.

@Serie: Woo! That is exactly what I am planning to propose next (see step 2.2. above) using the name 'Contrib'. I'll put a link to the PR here (and in the steps above) when I have that up.

@Sundance: I missed 2.2 above. Sorry. But, yes, it's the same thing as Contrib.

@Sundance: I would suggest having one branch and call the branch “Work by Team Members” or “Team Members' Work.” The reason I use that terminology is that it reinforces the idea that this project is a team project. We are emphasizing that the project is a group of people working cooperatively together and sharing their knowledge, skills and resources.

@Serie: I am not sure I understand how you want to use this branch? Should we put our personal bits into it and only pull it to master when we are ready to release?

@Sundance: It's the same thing as “Contrib” in your 2.2. I like the idea of bringing the concept of “team” into the name of the branch, but your idea and mine are the same. Yes, we put personal bits in it. The original work we do is kept in our personal directory, and then we move copies which may be altered and combined with other's work to other directories where needed.

@Serie: I actually prefer the idea of doing personal work in a branch that isn't master, it is how I work normally. My main concern here is there may be team members who are not (yet) comfortable with git and branching and would prefer to not do that. I can go either way…

@Sundance: The other reason that I think having personal directories is valuable is that gives some permanence to an individual's contributions. An invidividual, of course, can use Mewe to announce a contribution to the project, but after few days it slips down the list and gets lost in the chatter. A personal directory on GitHub, however, containing an individual's collection of contributions, has permanence.

@Sundance: Probably the most important and powerful side benefit of personal directories relates directly to the success of the project. Having an individuals name on a directory is a way to publically recognize their contributions. Let's face it. Recognition is all we have to offer someone who puts in hours and hours of volunteer time. When someone feels recognized, they have more of an incentive to continue to contribute to the project. If we left out personal directories, then an individual's contributions would be thrown in the mix with little recognition.

@Serie: As I understand their use, the personal directories are a transient place to put things while working on them, those things would move into release when they are ready to go. Are you thinking about that differently?

@Sundance: Nope. Not thinking differently. But . . . we keep our original contributions in our personal directories, and move copies to where they are needed.

@Sundance: I envision personal directories not only valuable for developers, but for clothing creators as well. By having personal directories for creators, they become a part of the team - and gain recognition. (In my case, I could really use some Blender files of clothing, shoes, hat, etc. to test on Ruth and Roth models. That would be really helpful to catch problems before going into a release.)

@Serie: I agree with this except for one thing: I think we should make additional repos for other things, specifically other things that are not going to be developed and released on the same sort of timeframe that the bodies are. Maybe keep a reference set of skins and clothes, but all additional skings in a skin repo maybe? It might be hard to image but putting everything into a single repo causes confusion down the road, we will already have enough of that with both Ruth and Roth in there together and having different versions.

@Sundance: Oh sure. As time goes on - and as the structure and the extent of the project dictate - that certainly would be the most prudent course of action.

@Sundance: But it goes beyond the practicalities of properly testing a product before release. I see Ruth/Roth as an incredible learning opportunity. People can use the Ruth/Roth project to learn how to create their own mesh avatars and HUD's - and, if creators contribute to GitHub, people can also learn how to make clothing and accessories.

@Serie: +++ exactly! Think fo the whole RuthAndRoth organization in Github as the unit of collection, not just the Ruth repo and we are on the same page here.

@Austin: g) I have the skins for the included Ruth RC#3 and Roth RC#1Skin Applier HUDs as well, but wanted to respect any restriction on those that Shin might have been asked to respect. I have no idea if they are meant to be restricted (which is next to impossible), and I wish Shin had only used openly available skins in his included HUDs.

@Serie: I have created a new skin applier as part of my combo HUD that contains Linda Kellie's 7 female skins. I think those make a good well-known reference set. I have imported them all into SL and will make those UUIDs available when I post the code to github.

@Austin: h) I have asked on MeWe and Google+ to see if the skin creators would have any problem with posting these in the repository (we actually have a LOT of skins in the repository anyway), but the ones released are a bit nicer, and some have Shin's dragon tattoo which is a nice pointer to his origination of the project and the work he did.

@Austin: i) It could be that the skin perms are the reason some parts go to no transfer after they are worn and that might have been intended by Shin. Maybe someone with more knowledge of all the underlying assets in an IAR could fix that as its just a pain at the moment?

@Austin: j) We are missing all the DAE's that Shin used. Its likely he used very optimised and well exported versions using Avatar (Taarna Welles explained this to me) as they are really low avatar complexity. My attempts to create DAE and upload them lead to MUCH MUCH higher avatar complexity meshes. Taarna's Roth with modified lower half has very different avatar complexity too, and has a small gap between upper and lower.. implying any change will need to be considered for review in a later RC.

@Austin: k) Fred pointed out that “Ruth RC#3” like DAEs are available from Sean Heavy's Ruth Too repository and Sean confirmed he created them from Shin's devkit without any change to that. But those are exported by him from the DevKit and we don't know his process for subdivision of the parts, how he did Alpha Cuts or his Blender export settings. We should make sure these sorts of things are documented in future.

@Fred: Thank you Serie and Austin. I have been emailing Dr. Tate about regaining some sort of control over the repo. We can no longer add or remove contriributors or commit rights. Austin and I want to add Serie,

@Austin: and we did with Write access (by addign her as a contributor rather than just a “Github Organization “member” who by default has read access. . Plus Sundance.

@Fred: This is a community effort, and the 'core' developers should have control of the github account.

@Fred: After a short discussion with Austin, I took the liberty of creating a free Github Corporate account and added the Shin Repo to it, including all the history. The Corporate URL is https://github.com/RuthAndRoth I added Austin. So we can play. EDIT, I see Serei is there now. now.. Very Good! We obviously can add others as Admins (of the group or individua replositories), Contributors (to the Ruth repository) or other levels of User control.

@Sundance: I will defer to your judgement on structure of GitHub. The only thing that I ask is to have my own directory and sub-directories where I can post the files that I am working on. If any of my work is used for new releases, then the files can be copied and moved to the appropriate location. I feel most comfortable working in this manner on GitHub.

@Fred: yes

@Serie: of course! I was wondering if we should collect the 'personal' directories in one place off of the top level, rather than having multiple places to go hunting for them. What do you think about that?

@Austin: I am in favour of this. “R2 Experiments” or something like that?

@Sundance: I am using the “GitHub Desktop” version which I find more intuitive to use than the standard interface - and I assume that under Serie's plan above, I could continue to use it.

@Fred: Yes

@Austin: I like the Github web UI as well as GtHub Desktop. I am not so keen on the command console line interface.

@Sundance: I agree that we need to establish a new GitHub directory for the reasons that Fred and Ai have mentioned and for the very salient reason that we have no way of adding new administrators.

@Austin: Serie combined HUD and flexible part order scripts… some thoughts… I will see if I can track down the SL loaction or go via your icks on your SL profile… [ UPDATE: Found it via seriesumei Fireheart region ]

@Austin: I wonder if the “combined” HUD includes slots to drop one skin (face, upper and lower) or has a whole set of slots like Shin's Skin Applier HID? That has a rather heavy texture load and ofte gives warnings in the viewer about using a lot of textures. It may not make sense to combine too many things in one HUD. I have a base outfit for Ruth and one for Roth with ALL the HUDs that are associated with each of them (8 HUDs in total!!!) and then tend to create outfits on COPIES of the mesh parts applying th skin and alpha cuts needed for the clothing worn, then I remove those HUDs, leaving only a couple of those HUDs for the dynamic elements like finger pose and head expressions. The skin applier gets used less frequently than the alpha cut HUD which may be needed after clothing changes (for now anyway until we have a better supply of properly rigged mesh clothes that fit right.

@Serie: AiAustin, the HUD in my store right now (12Jan) has a new skin applier layout that actually only uses 3 textures to render the skin applier part of the HUD. Having 20+ textures visible is a huge load. I have been using some of the existing SL mesh body HUDs to guide what I think belongs and what doesn't. You are right, we don't want everything in one, I think outfits and skins generally need their own, but it is common for the base HUD to contain a number of basic skin options.